as the act of running mission is tedious to say the least.

Maybe we need some sort of rift that permanently prevents travel from hisec to low/null and visa versa and block all communications :D

Then both sides can be naively unaware the other lot even exists.

I strongly suspect that the "only plays in high sec" type player is a minority (and a disinterested, disorganized minority at that), as evidenced by high sec inability and sheer unwillingness to group together for anything like fighting goons or electing CSMs. In other words, the mythical high sec majority is just that, a myth.

This is why so many Low and Null Sec players have HS alts to make money with.

This can be fixed in 2 ways:
Make HS relatively less safe (i.e. make it absolutely less safe or make other areas absolutely more safe)
Make HS relatively less rewarding (i.e. make it absolutely less rewarding or make other areas absolutely more rewarding)

They start being able to make money where they live.

You should be able to make more money in less safe areas. The whole "higher risk gets higher reward" principle.There should be an actual decision to make between accepting a lower income in the safety of HS and accepting higher risk in the high income zones of Low and Null sec. Right now, you can get high income and high safety at the same time, so there's no reason to make your income in Null.

HS is popular because it is better than Nullsec for making money.

Why would anyone leave the game?
If you're living in HS full time, there's no change in your lifestyle, the point tally just goes up a little slower.
If you're living in Nullsec, you can now make more money more conveniently since you no longer have to commute.

It's about time to stamp these 5 man highsec corps out of existence anyway.

Wrecking hi-sec won't fix nullsec.

Hi-sec needs some rebalancing in areas like industry, but the aim of any change to a game should be to make it better not worse.

Its going to take years and some very vocal high sec bears will scream and fight the whole way.

They can build slowly using the fewer but less valuable NPC slots that serious industrialists will long since have abandoned.

Tell me, why should I and everyone else in null sec be forced to build in empire space rather than in our null sec empires?

The difference is that miners get to mine in high sec if they tank or not. I only have the option of going to high sec because it is impossible to compete if I go to null. I am willing to take the added risks and time to go live in null but right now there is no way even compete with high sec let alone earn more for that added risk.

I've always said, the biggest flaw in EVE is the hard-set "walls". 0.5 to 0.4 is a huge mental step to take. 0.1 to 0.0 is another, but not as large.

The easy fix I've proposed, have concord response be a percentage scaled to the system you are in. 1.0=100% response, 0.9=90%, and on down the line. Tear down the "Berlin Wall" separating high and low, and let people choose what level of "protection" they are willing to live with.

Hell, throw some skills into it, even. Good guys can have a "fast response" skill, upping the arrival percentage, making it more risky to attack em. Bad doods can have a "evasion" skill, lowering percent chance of response. Maybe even toss in some ship, implant, and/or modules that change those percentages too.

It almost fits RL police, in a way. In the nice rich neighborhoods, the 5-0 show up for any call from grandma. They ain't stopping for jaywalkers in the slums though.

Guess where T3 production happens.

Moon goo and WH resources have nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

Production of ships, mods and ammo in both WH and Null cannot compete with high sec. Not only do we lack the slots needed but we also incur costs that makes it impossible to beat high sec on price. It is simply cheaper to import the finished goods from a high sec market.

They have, many times in many of these threads over the years. Tell me, why should they be forced to export their resources, to build their things in empire and then export them back for use?

Aaand another one .... prove your fairy tales before your demand proves from others.

I don't have to, we can simply use maths to see that it is impossible for them to compete with high sec due to the higher costs.

And no, when it is impossible for a section of players to live in the vast bulk of space no matter what they do it is not a consequence it is a massive game imbalance.

The costs are much higher for null sec and WH industry which means that high sec will always produce cheaper goods that will undercut null sec industry.

There is no way around this, not only do we lack the slots but we cant even match the high sec prices.

Quote and Link to where anyone in this thread asked to be "able to completely cut yourself off from Empire and never have to set foot there again." Or stop making **** up.

Nope. We want to be able to not be punished for wanting to make our ISK where we live.

it is impossible for a section of players to live in the vast bulk of space no matter what they do

Tell me, why should I and everyone else in null sec be forced to build in empire space rather than in our null sec empires?

What you're saying, if I am not misreading you here, is that it is impossible to live in NS -- COMPARED TO HS. That being the case I still do not understand WHY you choose to live there. Your claim is that no matter what you do in NS it will never EVER be as good as HS. Of course, it won't. It's ******* NS. It's supposed to be more challenging than the HS Carebear Risk Averse Kingdom of CONCORD. You moved to NS for the challenge but now find that you aren't up for it? I don't get it.

CCP have stated that they want us to be almost self sufficient.

Now I must ask, why do you hate industry players?

Is there a reason why people can't just pay their sub and play the game as it is? I swear, CCP Devs must absolutely hate their jobs. All day, every day:

Nerf ganking!
Buff ganking!
Nerf AFK Cloaker *******!
Nerf Drone Assist!
Nerf SuperCapitals!
Nerf Incursions!
Nerf Bastion Modules!
Change Bastion Modules!
******* MTU got me killed - MTU is ******* fail! (MTU for CSM!)
Nerf High Sec!
Nerf Null Sec!
Buff Corpses!

All day long - these poor bastards at CCP put together a pretty ******* awesome game and everyone playing it apparently ******* hates it because they come here on a daily basis to argue about the changes that it absolutely must have or:

Eve will die
I and my 8 accounts will quit
Things will be unbalanced
The sky will fall
Player base will stagnate
New players will leave

Seriously, what kind of sense does that make?

but bots are still having to play the game; it's just a bot doing it for you.

yeah, either stop trolling or work on your english. don't really care which.

your reply heavily implies otherwise.

it didn't imply that at all. go and read it.

I may be misreading this but "having" to play the game? Like this recreational activity is actually a chore?. An obligation? A job?

yes they do. it's a program that is explicitly designed to play the game. you turn it on and that's exactly what it does, that's all it does. it's not like you turn it on and it goes "nah, don't want to do missions today, going to play some skyrim instead".

so yes, they do have to play the game because that's their single purpose.

Sadly, there are some who do need the bots to play as it makes them RL money.

it's not like all the high sec players are doing l4s in high sec taking mediocre isk/hour to avoid the risk of null sec (or maybe it is, and that's the actual issue. the risk/reward balance is way off), when all of the bots are doing the same. clearly the earning potential in high sec is higher, this is a balance issue.

when the majority of both players, and botters shun an area of space, i think that's a very big indicator that there are issues with a given area of space.

i agree the playstyle is a deterrent, however I'm not sure that reason alone contributes to such a small proportion of the accounts being active in null sec.

while we do not know how many accounts each player has, i will argue that due to many null sec players having alts they keep in high sec means that the player distribution is probably fine but the account distribution is not. When players keep their alts intentionally away from their main accounts i'm going to say that's not because of the play style of null sec; as proven by the fact that their main lives in null sec and is more to do with the game mechanics.

like this.

i suggest you stop dragging their fleets down then if you only manage 1 site every 15 mins.

that screenshot was from my wallet, about 10 mins ago. most of the time was spent trying to figure out what the site payouts were in the filter.

If CCP finally nerfed hi-sec, it would result in another massive threadnaught.

So you're saying this is the aspect you like about EVE, yet it's the aspect you're asking them to remove.
Not that we didn't know this before, but it bears repeating: you're a moron.

... for you, during the one month before the game dies completely.



Nullsec is already dominated by bot-mining. Thus your theory has already been disproven.



See above.



They would not. See my first comment.

TBH a good percentage of casual players who prefer to carebear eventually leave after 6 months to a year anyway.

They have certain goals such as make X amount of ISK or get to fly ship Y (typically plex my account for free and fly an orca) and once that is achieved their interest fades as even more ISK is not particularly a challenge and skilling up for ever more shiney ships gets old.

However forcing them to PvP is not likely to encourage more than the occasional person to stay longer.

Most of these people will not or do not enjoy PvP. Some, I can think of examples in my mains corp for example, are surprisingly successful at PvP when they bother (such as during war decs) but just do not find it fun. Either because the EVE rubber-duck-toy-navy-mechanics does not do it for them or simply because they are a personality type adverse to PvP and confrontation in any form, full stop.

They're both important, but I wouldn't say being nice is more so.
Unless the lack of said entity's niceness lead to the destruction of intelligence, but then we're still considering the preservation and cultivation of intelligence (and of course other things like knowledge) the primary goals.

Intelligence is darn interesting, I'd say it's worth an enormous amount.

In fact, it may be one of the most important things in the universe.

But profit margins! Trade hubs! ISK/hour!

I thought industry was about making things.

How can you still not understand that "profits" is not the goal here?

No.

Production is.

What you do with the product is a separate act.

Actually, several do. Notably, the American battle tank industry.

It continues to exist, subsidized 100% by the government, to keep the individuals working there from being unemployed. The Army has a giant warehouse full of unused tanks in the desert near the facility.

Industry is production.

Sales is, well, sales.

They are separate. I also do not know why the concept of making something to actually use it is so foreign to you.

Or, you know...

fun.

It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.

I am still reading through the last few pages, but I just wanted to comment that the statement a couple pages back that you should slowboat jump freighters is in the top 5 stupidest things I have ever heard on this forum.

This is your problem, since you don't seem to accept what kind of game EVE is. Where i'm from, 'games' are played aggressively and competitively, whether it's the Friday night high school football game or the back yard barbeque Dominoes showdown between me and my cousins lol.

EVE is such a competitive game. It was made with pvp interactions in mind. Your choice to play a game like this when you obviously believe that the people who are playing the game as designed are being 'jerks' demonstrates how mentally unsuited you are to the game.

I honestly marvel at people like you (and there are a lot). I get that different people like different things, but why people would choose to be a misfit in any situation they pay for (and you attitudes about the game and it's players common gameplay make you a misfit) is just so amazing.

There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

So you're saying this is the aspect you like about EVE, yet it's the aspect you're asking them to remove.
Not that we didn't know this before, but it bears repeating: you're a moron.

I feel there's some irony that EVE's open-world PvP nature, is the direct reason hisec is probably in this kind of state. If people didn't associate low and nullsec with "I can get blown up by any random person.", or if it wasn't such a likely scenario if you're in a weak, mostly defenseless ship...

Hisec's danger is, largely, NPCs. This is something CCP has direct control over. As hisec is largely safe in this state, stuff isn't too valuable up here.

The problem being lowsec and nullsec, while still having NPC risks, now have a factor that is uncontrollable by CCP - the players. They probably 'scale' lowsec/nullsec to the NPCs, increasing the value of stuff found there proportionally. The problem is the human factor. The scaling doesn't fit the fact that by going into lowsec or nullsec, you now gain an entire new problem that is completely unscalable: other players.

As someone mentioned at some point, EVE is a lot about risk and reward. And by going into low/null, your risk skyrockets through the roof due to the human factor. The rewards scale to the NPC factor, but CCP has no way to figure out how much the human factor is 'worth' in the risk equation. If you probably looked at all three sectors from just the pure NPC risk, they probably scale very nicely.

The human factor completely ruins it though.

Classic case of how some bratty children cry when they poop in their own sandbox.

What's wrong? Your sandbox is full of poop? So fix it. You have the power to do that. Or you can play in the poop.

It is pretty simple.

goons are very smart, and have built far more analysis tools available than anyone else.
goons follow the money.
goons are in null sec.
If high sec was more profitable / hour, goons would have bolted for high sec long long ago.

What they really want, and are getting, (high sec POCO's are just the tip if the iceberg) is bigger piece of the high sec pie as well as the null sec pie they already control.

All the high sec players who are oh so smug about null sec income getting nerfed with the ESS, do you seriously think that goons have not already successfully lobbied for a high sec version, one that they can control? One that requires a war dec to remove once it is placed. One that is password protected.

ROFL.

Personally, my goal is to be able to get BACK to my precious null sec preserve. I run incursions and sister's missions to make the isk I blow doing other things, making that same isk in null would require more time effort and risk and detract from doing the fun things.

Time. Effort. Risk. Overhead costs. These things matter. you don't get that.





You're hopeless. You're not even trying to understand what's being said to you.

EVE Survival has detailed info on every mission. EVE Uni has detailed info on incursions.


Are you saying that detailed info on these sites are lies?

Citation needed from both of you as to where the 'active' bots are.
Yes, CCP's bot bans have hit The Forge hard.... Almost like they include Spam Bots as 'Bots'.
Neither of you have any evidence where mission bots & ratting bots happen to live.

The only thing we know is that they do exist.

Sorry man but there is a train wreck headed your way.

CCP has released figures that show that 80% of bots have, in fact, been found in High Sec. That release has been posted on other threads of this nature. Right now, someone is digging it up for you.

However, I don't know that the data supports that the player utilizing the bot is a full-time High Sec resident. Meaning that the bot owner could very well be a Null resident using the bot in High Sec to fund their other endeavors in Null.

Citation needed from both of you as to where the 'active' bots are.
Yes, CCP's bot bans have hit The Forge hard.... Almost like they include Spam Bots as 'Bots'.
Neither of you have any evidence where mission bots & ratting bots happen to live.

The only thing we know is that they do exist.

Your hi-sec level 4 isk per hour is a bit like the fisherman and, 'it was this big'

We will min max to get the most out of anything.

For example, we found out it was possible to make tens of billions in a matter of hours with FW when it was on sisi, CCP and everyone else it wasn't possible. We abused the living hell out of it, CCP nerfed it soon after when word got out how to do it.
.

When was the last time you docked up in high sec because a neut showed up?

You do realize that fleeting someone doesn't allow them to attack you?
Fleets don't change highsec aggression mechanics at all. To Crimewatch two people in the same fleet look exactly like two people not in a fleet, or two people in different fleets. This might be different as far as jetcans go, but otherwise it's the same.

[quote=Kimmi Chan]So my alt flying in an Incursus fleeting with my friend in a Gnosis and me shooting at the Gnosis would invoke a CONCORD response. This was not the case a week ago when we did just that.

Unless you were in the same corp as your friend in the Gnosis

We ask for a nerf because our equivalent of level 4 missions, anoms, have been nerfed to the point where it is not worth running them. CCP have stated that they cannot buff them so there is only one option open to us. With this latest nerf to anom income all we are going to see is even more people going to high sec to make more isk for near no risk.

In short, yes.

That wont get null players back into null to make their isk.

It was enough before the forsaken nerf. Simple fact is that CCP do not want to turn the taps back on in terms of isk. If high sec had seen the exact same nerfs mirrored that null has seen we wouldn't be in this trouble.

They did it without considering the bigger picture. Just look at this latest plan.

I agree, but fat chance on it happening. Same reason anoms probably won't be revamped from being what IMHO is the worst PvE in the game: no one wants CCP to devote time to fixing what ails it.

We were pointing out that null industry was massively broken 8 years ago.

Unfortunately, nerfs are needed sometimes. In the case of industry, you cannot compete with free so high sec will be having to see charges to use their facilities go up sharply just to get null and WH on an even footing as well as some very big changes in the way outposts and POS work.

No **** null has seen nerf after nerf. So has every sector as we mentioned many times.

Grow some balls and move to w-space if you wanna make real money.

How is it that Null is banging their fists on the table and WH denizens just do their thing without a care for what is happening here? Is W-space any less of a challenge?

unfortunately whatever is said gets a bunch of drips completely missing the point yelling 'you're trying to force us into nullsec', 'you nullbears have just been doing it wrong', 'well stop shooting non-blues who try to go to null', 'nullsec is supposed to be somalia' (lol) etc etc etc

I love how gross keeps coming up despite multiple people telling you it's not about that, but about personal income.

You are mistaking total isk faucets with how much a player can earn.

Null sec you only get bounties while a large chunk of income in high sec level 4s comes in the form of LP. LP is the primary form of income with missions followed by bounties. This is why those stats your are using are useless for working out how much you can earn in each area of space.

Plus it does not fix the problem of the vast bulk of null sec being useless.

If we cannot buff it then that leaves but one option.

Actually, CCP's right hand doesn't seem to be talking to its left. Their own economist stated that inflation was fine and so were the isk sinks and faucets.

This is about game balance. If there is no reason to go to null then people will not go to null, if the only way to fix the game is to nerf high sec then thats what must happen.

Oh, that's just hyperbole and you know it. Especially for an inappropriate comparison in the first place.

Buffing the other areas of space would cause inflation. Inflation is a bad, bad thing, especially with regards to new player retention.

Being brought down to par with the rest of space is not some heinous punishment, you've been enjoying the imbalance for years now anyway.

It always makes me laugh to see "well just go highsec yourself!" as the response.

Not only is it not a good way to defend something suspected of being overpowered by telling me I should be doing it too, but all of highsec should pray that the Goons never actually do this. The result would be, while hilarious, highly detrimental to the average citizen of highsec.

In short, yes.

Tell me why you would take the greater risks in null sov space to earn less than in high sec with full concord protection?

So nerfing high sec income wont be an issue for you then.

No it wont. But it will make it more viable.

The goal isnt to make more isk, it to make null desirable to go to.

You're not even trying to argue the point anymore.

You can't buff null, because inflation.

The next steps are obvious. It just hasn't been taken yet because CCP fears the outcry that any real nerf to highsec would cause.

And that's it. One group holding the gameplay of another group hostage by threatening to withdraw their subs if any action is taken against them.

We are already the biggest players in all of these activities.

The ESS as it currently stands (the second incarnation anyway) is a fairly hefty nerf to highsec.

So, you're saying that a few thousand more people running around ganking miners, wardeccing indy corps, and blasting freighters... wouldn't be a big issue?

Oh, how I wish.

This thread reminds me somewhat of people from Somali under the warlords saying the US and Europe need more crime and street gangs as that is the only way Africa will ever overcome its problem and feed the starving masses.

Well in fairness, most of their current problems are Bill Gates' fault anyway.

What the people defending a bad and utterly indefensible status quo saw in high sec that they benefit from:

No it wont. But it will make it more viable.

The goal isnt to make more isk, it to make null desirable to go to.

You want PVP play eve online , if you want PVE play something else. safely pve died in this game .


play star citizen instead for PVE

The only reason we are in high sec is because thats where the isk is.

Nerfing high sec income would make null more desirable to go to and we would go there.

No it wont. But it will make it more viable.

The goal isnt to make more isk, it to make null desirable to go to.

There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

Stop misquoting me.

You are taking a lot of my quotes and using them out of context which is only making you look foolish.

If null sec offers us better income than high sec then we will be in null sec. Right now it does not so we are where the best income is located.

Its very simple.

Nerf high sec income to below null sec levels and null sec becomes the best place to go to because thats where the best isk is.

Wait. I thought this was a game about shooting spaceships? The miner carebears also just want to make as much isk as they can, but apparently it's not okay for them to do so. Miners have to fit inefficiently and suffer a loss in isk generation. !!HTFU!!

• You want to live in Null and be able to make at least as good money as in highsec (let's leave aside the argument that null is already better ISK).
• Miners want to fit their ship completely for mining.
• You feel forced to live in highsec for the ISK.
• Some miners feel forced to fit tanks.

Double-standard? I propose you !!HTFU!! and go shoot some internet spaceships and stop whining!!

Guys, don't be mean to Baltec, he has a good point.

There are many players in EVE that would be happy to take the risk of venturing into nullsec if the rewards were more worthwhile.

So, if a goon rats in the middle of goon held space with virtually no risk whatsoever, he should get virtually no isk/hr?

Two posts above you said "Some of the most fun parts of the game are eclipsed by highsec. This is not a good thing, not for long term subscriber retention, and not for new players either."

Do you believe war dec'ing NPC corp players and locking them out of stations is good retention?

sure, let people wardec the scope.

quite why you'd want to wardec the entire gallente federation for cash when you could simply join the caldari militia for free i don't know.

or, in other words, what a silly idea.

Once again however, just a suggestion. Highsec needs to be less safe, this is my preferred option instead of actually nerfing their income.

As often as more than 1 of the following are true:

• Someone decides to kill them and has the ship and skills to do so.


• They are flying a bling ship.


• They haven't died in a long while.


• They are carrying too much cargo.


• They have made someone else mad enough at them to do something about it.

And if this is true:


• They fail to see to their own defense.

Then they should die.

It's not some kind of averaged out amount of losses per month, or some isk value, or whatever. It's not measurable, it's conditional.

Too often is blissfully ignorant safety the status quo.

My point is that a mechanic exists that prevent those conditions from causing death as often as it should. The main intended way to circumvent that mechanic, wardecs, is toothless since you dodge a dec for a pitiful amount of isk.

I feel dirty for agreeing with a Benny Ohu post. Like getting an open mouth kiss from an aunt; that dirty.

'nerf highsec all the way into the ground' is not a good way to balance things, it's not fair to the people that want to live there

There are a couple of parallel conversations here. First, the interesting thing about highsec L4 income is that it's actually pretty bad unless and until the mission runner gets engaged in the market--that is, with other players. Similarly, baltec1 makes a lot of his ISK blowing up freighters, not running missions. The real money in high sec is in interaction with other players, either in the context of the market or in the context of the logistics and PVE that the market drives (which is why there are so many people flying for SoE now--it's not because the agent rewards are so hot). As incentive structures go, this is actually less broken than nullsec ratting, where you get paid in straight ISK without having to interact with anyone. It's better for retention, too, because other people are the game. You can nerf LP payouts for high sec missions, sure, but not without provoking inflation. If the numbers Mabrick posted recently are at all accurate in the general case, the ISK sunk cashing out LPs is comparable to the ISK generated by bounties. That's not a bad outcome.

But even if you do that, so what? the real money is in the market. That's what makes the LPs worthwhile; it's what draws all those big, fat freighters, and keeps the barges out in the belts. And guess what? No safety, no market. There's a reason why every attempt to build a Jita in nullsec has failed: the mechanics don't support the creation of one. The nearest approximation are the trade centers of huge alliances, but as long as those remain walled gardens they will never achieve the status of a major high sec hub. Not only that, but the fact that you can send fleets of freighters to Jita and be reasonably assured that they'll get there also fuels the market.

Then, sure, you can buff player-owned manufacturing (and please CCP, make it so!) but again, proximity to Jita (or Amarr, etc.) will still be one of the major variables for any would-be mogul to consider.

On top of all that rests market trading, which tends to be where real fortunes are made. (And, incidentally, high sec is centrally located: it's a literal hub.)

So, the question is, how do you "nerf high sec" in any substantive way without neck-punching the EVE economy? And if you do neck-punch the EVE economy, what next? Is someone going to try and set up a new Jita in NRDS Providence? How's that going to work out? (Not to mention that the only effective way to nerf high sec income is to nerf player interaction, and why do we want to do that?)

this has pretty much always been the thing, some people just flip out and cry 'you're trying to force highseccers where they don't want to go' or 'they're trying to destroy highsec' or something i don't know

there are some nerfs that are necessary but they're only to improve the game not as jealousy or hatred or to force people into a playstyle whatever the insane GD 'highseccer' crowd think

I missed the part where anyone is asking them to.

The goal isnt to make more isk, it to make null desirable to go to.

You mistake my point.

Yes, the individual upper bounds are higher.

But DED sites are subtractive. Once you do them, it's gone and someone else can't come along and do it. Once that income is taken, it's gone. Furthermore, it's far more vulnerable to disruption, in which case your isk/hr goes to zero.

As opposed to L4s which are multiplicative, and incursions which are also subtractive but far more reliable/less vulnerable/better income.

To anyone who is actually trying to make money, there is only one clear choice here. Even Jenn Aside, who does DED sites and such on a regular basis, does it for fun, not money, because the isk is better elsewhere.

Cool.

So, once you do have the skills, go ahead and record your times and payouts and such, including when you have to hide or run from roams, gangs, etc.

Then go do L4s in highsec, and record the same data. Except this time you basically don't have to hide, or run. Ever.

Then tell me which one is a better way to make money.

No.

I'm telling someone who seemed to be attempting to equate the two that it cannot be done.

So you tell me, why try to make money in sov null when you will make more in high sec?

Null sec life might bother you but it doesn't bother us. So again, why should null sov have worse income for a pilot than high sec?

This game offers choice, the same choice is offered to everyone, when i make my choice i sure as hell aint going to cry that player B who choose the other choice got something more usefull or was rewarded better.

Dont ***** n cry at other players choices, if your jealous enough to do so just up an go do them yourself

...In a game like EVE, the choice should be "stay in safety and maybe make some money if I'm good and lucky" or "Go into danger and have a much much better chance of getting space rich (or dying, or both)...

Says the guy in an NPC corp...

[The problem is that you don't seem to understand enough about the issue to form an opinon, yet opine you do.

Highsec is not more dangerous than nullsec. In highsec PVE you avoid getting ganked by fitting your ship intelligently (read: not putting loads of stupid faction/deadspace/officer crap on it)...

In other words, staying safe in nullsec requires constant vigilance. You can AFK for days in highsec without being ganked.

Maybe you should stop treating the game like it was single player and, you know, get into a fleet or join a large corp/alliance.

their permission is not required

if this was the balance ccp wanted, then ccp was wrong

no, you haven't

Also, with about 2 months sp in combat skills, I would say you can make better income in null than in highsec.

I wouldn't say its limited, I would say its different. As an example you can still shoot people you either need a wardec, a gank, or one of the many flag tricks versus just being able to shoot them.

For starters:

-More contract mechanics like freeform contracts, mercenary contracts, bounty contracts, loan contracts,

-A use for stock other than to steal CEO from corporations I awox,

-More deployables that rely around suspect timers yet have a benefit to industry/trade. Think like a deployable shipyard or deployable npc miners,

-Revamp of wardecs and bounties,

-A highsec ESS,

-More interaction for FW via highsec,

-Player run incursions,

-Player given missions,

-POS revamp,

-Procedurally generated scaling missions. So each mission is different and for each of your friends the mission will get more difficult as well as more rewarding,

-L5s in highsec with the caveat that they are 0.0 pockets.

All of that would add content and more tools for highsec.

One of my thoughts had been for a while to make research projects cooperative.

Basically you would have a variety of specific research skills, but could only use one on a job at a time. You would be able to post it publicly or privately to ask for assistance, with potentially offering a isk reward to another player for adding another research topic to the job.

This would require a revamp of the entire research and production mechanic and skills however, so I don't forsee it ever occurring.

Sheesh you have a long way to go. What kind of T3 do you have?


The best way I've found for myself to make money in 0.0 is to run combat signatures. If I am able to find enough sites to run in goonspace then you should be able to. When I resubbed I had 400mil which i turned into 22bil in like 2 months just running about 7-10 sites a week. For example a pith penal complex takes about 20-30 minutes to run, or less if you dual box it, and even if the overseer just drops effects thats still 80mil for 30 minutes worth of time. Run 7 of those in a week and you made half a bil. Some days you can scan for a couple hours and not find anything but on those days I just log and try again tomorrow. Even with just effects you are making decent money but huge payoffs are always possible depending on the plex. Pith Penals can drop upwards of 500-600mil and the best plex in Deklein, the guristas troop staging point drops the medium shield booster thats worth like 700mil by itself. So figure 7-10 plex in a week with the low end of maybe 2 paying off big and the isk builds up really fast. I do have one advantage being in Goonswarm. Our Eve Wiki lists all the plex so you can read about what you are warping into before you commit a ship to something. I'm sure you can find public resources though, they just wont be as good. I'm still working up the nerve to try and run The Maze in dual tengus, but that site scares me, it has the possibility of dropping over a bil though.

In the 4 months since I returned I bought 2 faction fit tengus worth around 1.6 bil each, a Revelation, 10 timecards, I gave away around 4bil isk for Christmas and I still have 10bil in my wallet.

Also I don't recommend buying your stuff in 0.0. Buy all your stuff in jita and hopefully someone in your corp runs a freighter service or find someone with a carrier who can jump your stuff back. Train into a carrier if you haven't, it will make your life so much easier.

22 bil in 2 months in 366 mil a day, thats nothing in incursions, sisters mission, thukker missions , cosmos farming, and smart blitzing.

For example the primary form of income in null are anoms, they will on average net you around 90 mil/hr in raw isk, less in poor trusec systems which make up the bulk of null.

As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level

4 hours*

Not 4 anoms.

You do not get 90 mil per anom.

You earn 90 mil per hour running anoms.

Pay no heed to the null dweebs.

They will say whatever it takes to keep the treasure trove that is 0.0 from being overrun by all the rest of EVE. They can throw away 70 Titans but they aren't pulling in a kings ransom every day.

Ohhhh- kay


Mr Epeen

Keep in mind that declining multiple missions at a time lowers standing, potentially (eventually?) locking you out from using these agents and thus, voiding the claim of 'sustainability'.

Bear in mind that you may have to practice mission blitzes to get them right (see my damsel fail as an example), so you may fail a lot in your first 4 hours.

Cap booster, armor Sentry+5 gun Dominix times, @ 1000 lp conversion (for FIO) - all times are undock to dock (my agent usually gives me x mission in y place that doesn't vary very often). Further improvements available from pirate ships.

these will be over 100m/hr for sisters.

Matts for War - (2 jumps) - buy kernite in station, receive implant - rate 300m/hr
Ammar Smash supplier - 7 minutes - kill tower - effective rate 99.5m/hr
Ammar Smash supplier - 47 minutes - clear all and loot - used when out of rejects - effective rate 74m/hr
Dread pirate scarlet - 25 minutes (4 jumps), clear to scarlet and scarlet pocket, loot and leave. effective rate 93m/hr
Serp assault - 9 minutes - blitz gates are open - effective rate 79.2m/hr
Serp blockade - 23 mins - triple sebo domi full clear - effective rate 78m/hr
Serp/gurista wc - 19 mins with card - experimental kronos run - effective rate 61m/hr
Serp/gurista wc - 25 mins dominix clear first pocket, ignore guristas - effective rate 57m/hr
Ammar Surprise Surprise - 22 - clear and loot for tags - 59m effective
merc stop thief - 5 mins - prestashed reports, kill 2 bs - 56.9m effective
angel pirate invasion - 17 mins - full clear triple Omni - 57.3m effective
serp extrav - 26 mins - full clear - 52.9m
attack of the drones - 14 mins full clear (believed blitzable) - 61m/hr effective
damsel - 16 + 12 loot - badly failed kronos test run shot wrong tower + loot - 68m/effective (potential there!)

missions last recorded in the 40m - 50m range for FIO - Will probably be 80m/hrs for sisters, may reject some if on a good run.

zor right hand - 6mins - kill zor group and leave
angel unauthorized - run to ripped structure kill group and leave - note run made with navy mega
blood cargo delivery - frigate blitz - can probably stash stuff for this
silence informant - 22 mins (4 jumps) - not blitzable
angel smuggler intercept - 22 mins - fit failure (no prop mod - possibly better)
serp score - 18 mins - domi was 5 minutes faster than prebastion kronos maybe diff now
mordus headhunters - 28 mins (maybe potential in this one - it really wants the navy domi)
drones infiltrated - 13 mins
angel extrav - 39 mins, doesn't agree with the domi or I was interrupted, can't remember (was a zerker/bouncer loadout).


rejects

serp duo of death
serp spies
sansha rogue slave


Other missions likely to be ok, but not recorded

buzzkill - method - move to 60km, snipe.

Some one else can fill in other races missions, but the sisters agent I used was fairly "gallente" in mix.

Like everything practice makes perfect. You should do fine with standings as you will make more than enough back to decline the few you dont want to run.

I would say until you get used to the missions and you have your tools in place you may see lower income than the people who have been doing them for years. But then, that goes for anything.

Well what a coincidence. It may take *years* before you see the numbers they are claiming.

How convenient.

I have done sisters missions on a single account with decent social skills and never saw 150 million/hr sustained. Such numbers were nonsense when I did them (years ago), and even with the current LP conversion are still nonsense. Did I hit that rate on my best hours? Yes. Could it be sustained? No, not a remote chance in a frozen hell.

However, I do look forward to your results.

Kimmi,

Could you please post your results here once you gather your data?

3 things you'll need.

http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Zbikoki%27s_Hacker_Card (for worlds collide)

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gate_Key (for Dread Pirate Scarlet)

http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage (for learing the right mission to do

After that, you need to know what to sell. I'm lazy so I stick to Sisters probes, but probe launchers, virtue implants and of course the ships are good too.

After doing Sisters, you can try these guys and get almost as good isk/lp conversions.

Bolded the only important part. Was the before or after the introduction of wormholes (which made the demand for SOE probing implants and gear go way up)? Or before CCPs exploration mechanic changes that made probing easier , or before CCP made probing a part of the tutorial (along with a free probing ship).

And since you say years ago, that means that you haven't missioned for SOE since CCP added 3 new ships (which again increase the value of SOE probing gear and implants because now people are spending LP on ships) right?

But who needs SOE when there are Thukkers in the form of Trust Partners in high sec?

Cool, and when you're done with all that you can join Faction Warfare because that's the best place to see another (this time non-high sec) part of the massive combat PVE imblance. This is simply insane . And i mean really insane. you simply should not be able to do that with frigates, drakes, caracals, hell anything at all.

Still, I have a stack of 20 Caracals in Rens just for that lol. Just because something is madly imbalanced doesn't mean i'm not gonna get my piece of the pie.



The point of alll this can be summed up in the question I asked Infintiy Ziona to answer during his "nulls ec makes so much more" thread (a question he has thus far refused to answer).

Do you think we're crazy? Do you think we can't see our own wallets and do the math on what works best given the actual in-game situation?

How do you account for "professional" PVe players like me (how, weirdly enough, like EVE PVE just for itself) as well as PVP players (like my alliance mates) having High Sec isk making alts? Why do you think we don't spend 100% of our pve time in null sec if it's all milk and honey.

It's because High Sec Incursions and missions for various npc corps (not just Thukker and SOE) is so good that even in situations where it pays a little less, it's worth it because it's VERY hard for people to disrupt what you are doing.

Take high sec incursions vs null sec pve isk making. You want to disrupt isk making in null. Use one alt in a cloaky ship (I don't let it stop me, I put on cloak and MWD+MJD and jump out of system to someplace else, or use one of my "screw your cyno" FoF + warpstabs ratting ships)

You want to disrupt an incursions fleet doing HQs? You gotta either Contest them (takes another 40 man fleet), gank them (need a bunch of dessies or BCs) or pop the mom (60+ member fleet).

it's just easier in high sec. Easier is fine. Easier + the same or just slightly less isk is a massive imblanace that goes counter to EVE's historic Risk vs Reward scheme. As i say, when I started playing, the only thing you could do combat PVE wise in high sec to approach the kind of isk you could make in null was exploit the hell out of that high sec lvl 5 bug....which i did btw...

http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=65348&start=210#p659712

The requested topic does not exist.

it's screwed up somehow. Google "Factional warfare missions are currently paying 600m/hr/toon" . Then go to the end of that thread, last post was this week.

A refreshingly stale argument "CCP did it so it was right!"

CCP also did Incarna and it nearly killed the game, try again.

Even more so then the earlier sites posted by the goon making billions in a day.

3 things you'll need.

http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Zbikoki%27s_Hacker_Card (for worlds collide)

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gate_Key (for Dread Pirate Scarlet)

http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=HomePage (for learing the right mission to do

After that, you need to know what to sell. I'm lazy so I stick to Sisters probes, but probe launchers, virtue implants and of course the ships are good too.

After doing Sisters, you can try these guys and get almost as good isk/lp conversions.

If you're at 9.0 standings or something, you will not make it up with storylines. It will trend down because of the way standings work. If all you care about is staying over 5.0, then its fine, but if you want to maintain 9.0 standings or higher, you had better not decline very much at all.

So you're going to assert that CCP hasn't made decisions to the detriment of the game or in other words made mistakes?

[That highsec pubbie trotted out "CCP did it so it must be right," an old, tired and defeated argument. The incarna reference is evidence that CCP can and does make mistakes which is very relevant to the topic at hand. Leaving highsec horribly unbalanced like it is now is a mistake.

There is a lot of arguments out there about it and that is one, there's a huge Risk : Reward imbalance. Faction warfare shows they can ignore a problem until it blows up in their faces. Make sure your method is sound and that you show us the raw data too.

Stream it.

This will be a killer for you LP wise. You will only be getting 2/3 the LP of someone with SC V.

Most serious SOE mission runners have it at IV or V.

Also .. run a 0.5 agent or lower. Far better SP. I suggest Lanngisi, you get all the fun of the Hek crazies in their 'nados to relieve the boredom. Osmon LP sucks.

Listen to this man. I like Osmon because I can dock up, convert LP to probes and sell to reasonable sell orders right there, zero movement time as opposed to the 8 jumps i go to Rens from lanngisi in a transport (Hek isn't great for what I do).

And for a good sample you need those social skills up.

Even without them though, it's still good isk per hour. And if you can do 90-100 mil an hour plus, you just matched my anom running Machariel.

FYI that fit sucks. Its an overtanked, cap stable ~2009 fit, that doesn't have enough damage mods and has no applied damage mods, and no prop mod. Gurista and serpentis ewar will ruin that ships efficiency, and its generally terrible at locking and killing frigates and cruisers that are locking gates on it.

For reference, dominix tank for serp L4s - all I do is change the hardeners for other races.

1x core b-type large armor rep
1x core b-type kin hardener
1x core b-type therm hardener

2x aux nanopump.
1x med electrochemical cap booster.

ie 4 modules, 2 rigs, and its -overtanked- to the point that cap boosters always last the missions even if I have to use an MWD to run to gates after yanking the sentries. That leaves me 4 midslots free for applied damage and prop, and it leaves me a rig and a highslot for applied damage too. It also leaves me 4 damage mods, not 2.

Like I said, running missions properly, actually requires practice - you need to thin down the tank till its the applied DPS that is doing your tanking. You will never get good times with 5 capacitor modules, 3 capacitor rigs, and 5 tanking modules.

The times I put up before are going to be completely out of your reach.

that's a lot of cap mods, blitzers'll often use boosters instead so they can use less slots for cap

you won't run out of charges if you do it properly

this is the setup i have in eft, dunno if it's what i got ingame

[Apocalypse, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Tracking Enhancer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
100MN Afterburner II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L *8

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I

Hammerhead II x5

I'll check it out.

Tch, see, not entirely sure (since I consider myself to suck at PvE), but those numbers are indicative of one or two things.

Either you need more practice, or your fit needs redone.

Because I certainly should not be able to beat that in a Navpoc. And I easily can.

Ok, I'll just say it straight up.

Your fit, your methods, or both are flawed.

Because, like I said before, there is no way in hell I should be able to beat a Golem in a Navpoc. And I can easily beat the numbers you put up.

So quite simply, you're doing it wrong.

Kimmi isn't doing SoE.

Are you? And if you are, which item do you have chosen to sell for? Which agents are you planning on running, with which ones as a backup if you have to decline? How are you planning on mitigating travel times?

No, I really can't. I know what works for me, but in general I suck at PvE. I make most of my money scamming/corp thefting, and with PI.



That's like asking me if a slight error on the fitting on a PvP ship can drive a loss.

Yes, it can. Little things make the difference. Once again, PvE is hardly my forte, and I fly Amarr or Minmatar ships for PvE anyway, so I can't exactly tell you how to fit that Golem for it.

To answer such things, Jenn is by far a better authority than I am. I just merely wanted to point out that your numbers right now are pretty low, so something is clearly wrong.

yup, sounds about right, everytime I hear someone saying 50 - 90 mill/hr I just wanna hit him in the head with a frying pan, thats calculating that you're getting over 2-2.5k+ lp/isk each time, that you have a salvage alt and are somehow getting the best missions and blitzing through them like butter.

For SOE missions, the claimed payout is much higher than 90 mil/hr. Just FYI (read my post above).